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Post by rjrock85 on Dec 4, 2009 6:50:59 GMT -5
I found this thread on the White Wolf forums and thought that it would be a good idea to post a link to it here on these forums. forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/875.aspxThe thread offers many valuable tips for Storytellers new and old from veteran Storytellers. Feel free to add some tips of your own here.
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Post by Drozgul on Dec 5, 2009 0:47:57 GMT -5
I really dig that link.
All kinds of good stuff. The only thing I think I didn't like was the limited engagement thing, unless its behind curtain. i.e. players don't know until it is revealed in game.
I have played a few of these before. (episodics) They can be run well, but generally put a little bit of bad taste in my mouth at the forefront of rolling characters. Its mostly the metagaming aspect mentioned in the forum spot. Because I have seen metagaming since I started playing, and rarely see it in a healthy light. Those sorts of things make for big time game quits on my end of things.
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Post by Drozgul on Dec 5, 2009 1:01:47 GMT -5
Best single post from above thread read as follows.
"Besides knowing the Rules, know the Setting and the Genre.
Don't stop the story to look up rules.
Take breaks when needed.
Sometimes the Players have better solutions than the ones the Storyteller had planned, go with them.
If you introduce the Antagonist in the first scene, and some how they kill him/her for whatever reason, just think of the power vacuum he/she left behind.
Try and be fair and give each Player a turn in the "spot light".
Don't be afraid to say no to a Player's character concept if it doesn't match up with the Story you wish to tell."
The last one I think is the most important. The Storytellers really should be helping their players to grasp what the story will be about, so that their characters are their own, and have their own goals and such. But that they will drive the main elements of what you have in mind.
And if you can't do this, and someone creates a character with your blessing and then wrecks everything about your plot, shake their hand instead of getting angry and killing their character for it.
But saying no as a game running person should be easy, because you already know why. So just say it. These are your gaming friends. Explain why it doesn't work, and then work it out together.
Remember, the less you are willing to help a player with development, the less important you are already allowing them to be in your story. Its their story too. And as a player, the less you are willing to find a place for your character to fit, the more you hurt the game, the group, and future chances at play. I know that part from personal experience. We all learn and grow together, thats half the fun!
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rlandis
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Post by rlandis on Dec 5, 2009 1:19:45 GMT -5
I flop two ways on this. I'm all for everyone being at the table with a Gm who keeps the story going with fluidity. I'm also the the type to go for Player having one on one sessions with the Dm, this way players can jump in and out of the game and a schedule does not have to be set in order to fit all the players in at once. Though when the players meet up in game, then it is time to smash them together in real time.
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Post by Drozgul on Dec 5, 2009 1:35:44 GMT -5
Ryan, please answer this also if you will, along with the rest of you reading this please.
1) What is your most frustrating portion of storytelling? 2) What do you feel is your best aspect? 3) And what part are you constantly trying to improve upon?
I'd like to answer first since I'm already here.
1) Keeping parties together, without losing interest. Inevitably, some players just stand out from the crowd, and some deliberate longer...thats not the issue. I sometimes get so pumped about the story, that I might accidentally skip a players turn and start moving forward. Or I may forget to add a story element that appeals to that one character who has felt left out by the way the story is moving. Attention to all is something I constantly struggle with.
2) Impromptu storytelling. When the characters do the stuff you didn't premeditate, I can usually rebound it nicely. I work well under pressure, and am great at fixing problems in the story rather than making it perfect in the first place. And I just love when they ask a question that has nothing to do with the plot...suddenly a side plot may develop, or a paranoia becomes an antagonist out of nowhere... Let the players' role playing tell you where the story needs to go next, its easy if you try.
3) Descriptions! Descriptions! Descriptions! Once its in my mind all nice and dripping with flavor, I often forget the players can't see what I see until I tell them! I man do I struggle with this. I have played SOOO many games where the games stands still as the players re-describes the scene to me and I'm like..."Where the hell are you in the story.....no it looks like this." And its all my fault. lol. It needs a lot of work, but fortunately is getting better as I look back over those mistakes.
Okay guys, your turn. Poll each other on stuff too...this thread should be hot in no time!
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rlandis
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Post by rlandis on Dec 5, 2009 1:42:15 GMT -5
Oh, for me my list would go.
1: Being the circus ring master. I've always hated having too many players at the table because its hard to control them and the plot goes no where. I've always held the magic number of 4 as to be the number of players I like at the table. Humans, like most animals, are distracted by the most mundane things.
2: Not Protecting my players. I always let my players do what ever they want, I don't try and force them down a storyline or down a path. I try and give them room to move and room to make their own story plot. I've always had the mentality of I'll toss down the setting and the NPC's, but let them forge the storyline, even if it means they die.
3: Being the hero. . . I'm too much of a Dictator at the table, so I try and step back and not let my NPC's take the leadership role or dish out the pain to a character or monster. I'm trying to be "humble."
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Post by rjrock85 on Dec 5, 2009 7:14:27 GMT -5
1) What is your most frustrating portion of storytelling? 2) What do you feel is your best aspect? 3) And what part are you constantly trying to improve upon?
1. Like Rich, controlling the chatter at the table. I don't have an iron fist so I can't very well rule the table with one. So for future reference, when I'm GMing a game please, please keep the OOC chatter and distractions to a minimum or aid me in this function, because I may seem like I'm enjoying the chatter even participating in it but I'm actually seething with hell-borne fury lol. Game time is game time and it irks me when game time devolves into Goodbye Horses time or some such nonsense. I know, I know its a weakness I need to rid myself of but its just my nature. Look at this as a cry for help . 2. Not to toot my own horn but I think I do a damn good job coming up with intricate plots and stories as well as organizing the behind the scenes of a particular campaign. But, unfortunately, said details are hardly ever seen because player interest gets swallowed up by Problem #1 and the game falls apart. 3. There are two things that I'm constantly trying to improve: descriptions on the fly and roleplaying my NPCs in a way that brings them to life.
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Lady Masquerade
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Post by Lady Masquerade on Dec 5, 2009 15:54:31 GMT -5
1. I'm not sure if I can give this a decent answer, because I don't think I've had enough time under my belt as an actual GM. I've started I think 2-3 games that usually last a session or two, and then player schedules/holidays/money/time in general get in the way. Then before I pick it back up again, another game invitation has been laid at our feet and it's back in the player's seat. Perhaps I will amend the question in my case: What do *you* think is the most frustrating part of *my* storytelling and suggestions to improve them?
2. I think I'm pretty good at character backstories. In the few short years I've been playing, I've probably got a dozen or characters in my folder that all have long-winded histories and families and yadda yadda yadda. When I started to make a character for the latest Werewolf campaign, I e-mailed the other players my ideas for my backstory and most of the responses were "Damn." And I thought I still had a lot left to fill in!!
3. Stepping outside my comfort zone. I have for the most part in my gaming experience played the same type of characters over and over again. Different races, slightly different classes, but mostly with the same demeanor and manner of handling conflict. I'm hoping to break out of my safety shell with Dicky's Warhammer game and see just how far I can go with it. I hope I don't let anyone, including myself, down.
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Fenix
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Post by Fenix on Dec 5, 2009 21:33:23 GMT -5
1) The magic number is 4, but no one likes to leave their friends out with nothing to do. Turn off distractions! Cause whats the point of being there if one member is glue to the computer/tv/whatever. Keeping people focused can be tough, and dealing with the rule nazis in the group.
2)Actually I find I tend to help other DMs with ideas, I just go and then they have a plot. Too bad I don't to see what they do with the ideas.
3)Making a better game, overall I think I would like to improve since its hard to see what i need the most work on
and rock good bye horses dies when there is no reaction, its what feeds it hehehe, but hey asking ahead of time might work also
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Post by Drozgul on Dec 11, 2009 4:21:45 GMT -5
Suggestions found in a few texts I've been reading lately. They are just from World of Darkness resources (Mind's Eye Theatre is my favorite source), but easily apply to any kind of role playing game. Forgive the length, but one link would not encompass all of this good stuff.
"...after every story, to ask players for three suggestions about what the next story should be about. If several players make the same suggestion, you’ve got a good chance of making everyone happy — use it!"
"...if the players give you an idea that is better than what you were working towards, take it!"
"...it’s crucial that your players trust you and your vision, but incorporating player suggestion is a good way to foster that trust."
"...if the players aren’t having fun with your chronicle, they won’t want to continue the story. If they don’t feel their characters’ actions have any effect on the story, they won’t have fun with it. Therefore, it is incumbent upon the Storyteller to ask for and to accept feedback from the players..."
"...if [you] don’t keep a hold on the thematic center of the chronicle, it starts to feel unwieldy, the themes get diluted, and it’s harder to see the metaphorical forest for the trees."
"A good method for choosing your [story's] elements is to pull out whatever materials you choose to use (be they movies, graphic novels, traditional novels, Web sites, and, of course, [appropriate] books), grab a notebook and your favorite pen, and start making a list of what you think should be included in your [story]. If your players have already made characters, that’s fine — consider what elements would dovetail nicely with them. If not, make yourself a separate list of notes for the players when they do create characters, with suggestions for traits, background, and whatever else would highlight the elements of the chronicle you’ve chosen."
"A theme-based [story] requires attention to atmosphere and mood more than logistics and, more than any other kind of [story], it requires cooperation from the players to make it work."
"...encourage and persuade players to stretch their boundaries. Storytelling is about achieving something great through an interactive tale, but not at the expense of fun."
"Theme is useful in reminding the Storyteller where he stands as events unfold. The wild give and take of ideas and events in a game can often be overwhelming, and the Storyteller might find that his story takes a direction he didn’t anticipate or doesn’t even understand. The best way to get back on solid ground is to remember the theme and steer events back to it. It doesn’t matter what happens, as long as events illustrate the theme."
"Keeping a story cohesive over the course of many different sessions is made easier if a consistent mood is evoked. ... It’s the key images, symbols and even tension that the Storyteller consistently invokes to set the stage for the story. Mood reinforces theme."
"...atmosphere is primarily composed of two elements: theme and mood. Without these ephemeral yet vital components, Mind’s Eye Theatre can quickly become little more than a wisecracking splatter fest rather than an engaging personal exploration of fear, mystery and supernatural horror."
"Regardless of how many plots you have running at any given time, it’s wise to sketch each of them out so you have an idea of what can happen as the story proceeds. Players have a knack for doing things you don’t expect, so be prepared to shift the story around if necessary. Indeed, that’s why a general outline is sometimes better than a specific one."
"It’s been said before and it’s worth repeating: Conflict is the essence of drama. Conflict does not have to be physical (although it quite often is in roleplaying games). It can be as simple as a character striving to discover the location of a store in downtown New York. The conflict is represented by the obstacles he encounters, even if they’re merely other shoppers or the temptations of other, easier-to-find stores. This is perhaps the most boring example possible, but it shows that conflict is simply about setting an obstacle before the characters, giving them some challenge that bars their way to easy victory."
"Storytelling games are about amazing things that happen to characters in interesting places, described with passion and intensity by players. The details of a particular villain or an ominous graveyard are vital to evoking a scene. But don’t get too caught up in the literal. Events resonate on deeper levels, the levels of myth and poetry. In other words, events can be metaphors for powerful ideas. ...be aware of the power of myth — living metaphor — to greatly enhance a story, to add depth through resonance with mythic themes. To this end, think mythically, not literally."
"Some Storytellers establish a player cap, which is the maximum number allowed to participate, or make their games invitation only, carefully selecting the players they want for various reasons.Your primary scale considerations should be the number of players you can comfortably handle, and the planned duration of the [story]."
"Your story’s scope encompasses the range of possibilities for character action and impact. Essentially, it’s what’s at stake in your game. Are you telling a low-key tale in which characters are concerned primarily about personal agendas and small-town events? Or do characters have the chance to save the entire city from some dire supernatural threat? (Or to sell it out to it?)"
"The value of pacing is clear when you accept the Storyteller axiom that nothing goes exactly as planned. Characters sometimes miss vital clues for no apparent reason and then spend an evening scratching their heads as the session drags on. Or characters can cooperate in a frighteningly efficient manner, solving all the puzzles and conundrums that you thought would take them the entire night. Occasionally the players can even feel so overwhelmed by information or be so uncertain of what to do next that they fail to take an active role altogether.
...You can mitigate if not avoid these eventualities by considering your story’s pace. Decide the rate at which you’d like the story to progress before any session starts. Fastpaced games throw new situations at players throughout a session, forcing them to deal with each new challenge and leaving little time to assess the big picture.
...Slow-paced games lend themselves to extended communications between characters, not to mention subtle intrigues and plots. ... You may want to vary the tempo of a game, starting slow and getting faster, or vice versa.
...You can also infl uence the pace of stories by learning to narrate spontaneously. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t prepare for game sessions, but also be ready to provide plot information on the fly. Characters often ask questions for which you don’t have prepared answers, but that deserve a response in order to keep the action fl owing. Try to give answers that satisfy a player’s need for information, but that also advance — or at least do not impede — your plot.
...This sort of quick thinking adds to the mystery surrounding your main plotline without putting off your players or leaving your story in a bad position. An unexpected lull in the game provides the perfect opportunity to introduce a new plot thread that you cleverly prepared for just such an occasion.
...Or you can reintroduce a plot line that the characters thought resolved in order to keep the game going without a break in the action.
...Although off-the-cuff Storytelling is essential to any successful game, good pacing is roughly equal parts planning and improvisation. Start each night’s game with at least a rough idea of the speed at which you want events to occur and where you think the story will go."
Sorry about the last exerpt in particular being so long. But pacing is probably the one of the most troublesome parts of story-telling for me. I am terribly inconsistent, and am in need of much improvement. However I also feel that if done correctly, pacing is the single most useful part of a Storyteller's arsenal. If the story is the stuff legends are made up of, but it is not laid out before the players in a way that makes sense just because its too fast to find an important detail, or too slow to feel urgent or even credible at all, the story still fails.
I am learning to look to my players to see if I am controlling this element well. If they look puzzled, they might need a clue, or maybe just one detail at a time instead of a pile of them. Also if everything is coming too easy, I simply up the ante, and speed things up so that they have to make critical decisions that they have little or no time to think about. It can really spice things up.
Players learn from success, but more so from failure. So I try to use its possibilities more often.
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Fenix
Journeyman
Who in the hell do you think I am?
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Post by Fenix on Dec 12, 2009 12:36:48 GMT -5
I must say that WoD has become my favorite system, they encourage and help move rp along. Its a very flexible system to use and fairly simplistic compared to other systems.
I do really agree with you about jumping on a new system the second it comes out. Doing so mean that the Dm and players need to learn the system while they are trying to have fun playing the game.
At this point this thread should have been combined with the R Vs R topic, since both go hand in hand. A group of strong role players can make up for a blah story with banter, and a really strong dm can help along rp with weak players by a stroy that draws you in.
All I can say is see my rant on the R vs R thread to understand that its 50 player and 50 dm.
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rlandis
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Post by rlandis on Dec 15, 2009 9:59:58 GMT -5
Once again, I find that everything you have said falls under the idea of being a circus master. It is all about control and knowing the act. If you know your system, your players, and you have a FREE imagination, the story will be great!
But if your new to the system, don't know the players, and you limit your own imagination by boxing it down a liniar path, the air becomes stale.
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Lady Masquerade
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Look into my eyes. Do you see who I see?
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Post by Lady Masquerade on Dec 15, 2009 19:29:53 GMT -5
Quote of the Day from a coworker's calendar:
Be open-minded, but not so open that your brains fall out.
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Post by Drozgul on Dec 16, 2009 3:58:20 GMT -5
Dicky has a point (though it sucks that anyone should think a game is like this).
If it feels like a circus, run it like one. Even they are organized. Though admittedly nowadays they are getting quite bad.
Circuses have a target audience, and so do role-playing games. Let's face it, if your game is too self-centered, no one will like it. Even it is well prepared for, and ready for anything. I think we've all at least seen this if not played in one.
Adversely, if the game is too open, it is difficult to define purpose, to feel like anything matters, and then its just fantasy sight-seeing...not fun for very long.
Either way, having a plan is a good idea. Writing a book and asking friends to play characters in it...not so much. I mean, come on, you want to be able to make a difference right players?
Just some more of my thoughts.
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rlandis
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Post by rlandis on Dec 16, 2009 9:43:34 GMT -5
The limits of a good roleplay is the limits of the imagination. If you don't make the audiance gasp in wonder and amazement, step down from being the circus master and join the clown carnies.
You gatta control your npcs, your story, your setting, and your players both oocly and rply. Don't bar them away and force them down a hallway, but putting them in a rat maze with MANY ways to get out is best. A rat maze that continues to grow new ways to get out is the best.
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