Post by rjrock85 on Dec 22, 2010 6:56:44 GMT -5
Found these clarifications pertaining to Wisdom on the WoD wiki site ( wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php?title=Mage:_The_Awakening_Core_%28Errata%29#Wisdom )
This page contains stuff that Bill Bridges (one of the writers of M:tA) has said on the forums to questions.
This is not an official errata release and should only be viewed as a rough draft until the official errata is released. It's compiled here for the sake of convenience.
Wisdom
Q: Can you clarify the Wisdom 4 sin 'harming someone with magic'?
A: Using magic to 'harm someone' does need a better explanation, I agree. It really means using magic to directly harm someone with intent (accidents don't count). 'Someone' really refers to humans, not werewolves or spirits (or ghosts), although if the mage believes the werewolf is a human (i.e., someone cursed with lycanthropy, rather than a half-human/half-spirit creature), he might suffer degeneration for intentionally and directly inflicting harm with magic.
Q: Wisdom 4's "harm to someone" rule. I've heard you mentioned -direct- harm, so directing lighting or electricity from a wall socket doesn't count? What about self-defense? How much damage is harm (bashing/lethal/aggravated), because in the spell casting combat example, no one ever rolls for Wisdom?
A: Wisdom degradation only becomes an issue if you're using magic to harm someone maliciously. You can use it out of self-defense or defense of others. You can use it if someone has called you out for a fight and says it's okay (fight to the death, probably). But you can't go around using magic for ill purposes against others without suffering possible Wisdom degradation. Rules for Wisdom/Morality shouldn't be seen as a "letter of the law" kind of thing -- the spirit is what's important here, as it is when discussing most issues involving the humanities rather than science or law. However, this doesn't mean that lack of intent gets you off the hook in all cases -- accidental manslaughter is still something that shakes someone's Morality.
Q: What exactly counts as a curse for the Wisdom 7 degeneration?
A: Any Fate Evil Eye or variants.
Q: Would spells like Befuddle and Enfeeblement count as "cursing someone" for the Wisdom 7 degeneration?
A: Yes.
Q: Using Monkey's Paw to hex an object a person has counts as hexing them and is thus a Wisdom 7 degeneration roll.
A: Yes.
Q: Can you clarify what exactly is a Curse? Is it anything that lowers an opponent's attribute or affects his roll? What about mind control? It doesn't seem like it would be any spell that has a duration that's cast on a target. After all, things like Influence Emotion don't appear to be curses. I'm also assuming that this Wisdom 7 degeneration should be looked at from the spirit, and not the text, similar to the Wisdom 4 harm someone with magic.
A: Generally, a spell which causes the target to suffer negative happenstance that he has not earned or caused himself. Take context into account, though. This is a relatively minor "sin." Once your Wisdom drops below 7, you don't have to worry about it again. But those mages trying to keep to the Wise road shouldn't go around causing others to suffer ill happenstance for their own ends; that's bending fate or karma's natural process.
Q: You clarified that 'Harming someone with magic' only applies if the mage does this of his own volition and 'without due cause' - i.e., if he were defending himself from an attacker or participating in an agreed-upon magical duel, it wouldn't cause degeneration. Is this sort of discernment meant to apply to all Wisdom sins? That is to say, if you cast a curse someone in self-defense or bind a spirit to stop it from eating you or whatever, you shouldnt' have to make a degeneration roll? (Though context presumably still matters, so "he threw a punch at me" is not enough justification for unloading a death curse)
A: A curse is not really a self-defense spell -- degrading someone's Attributes or their dice pool doesn't stop them from attacking you; it just shifts the odds. You're still steering fate/karma to your own needs, rather than letting it play out against the target in its own due time.
The self-defense option might well apply against the spirit, if binding it stops it from harming you. But if you keep it bound beyond the immediate danger, then you might have to revisit the Wisdom roll.
Q: Does this also apply to Morality and/or Humanity? I'd been operating under the assumption that it really is the 'letter of the law' that caused you to degenerate because (good intentions or not) you were becoming desentized to causing suffering, so even someone who commits sins in self-defense comes away changed.
A: The sorts of things that apply to Morality in the World of Darkness rulebook err a bit more toward the letter of the law. Even if you kill someone in self-defense, your conscience can be plagued by guilt and doubt about whether you could have found another option (even if you really couldn't have).
In summary, you can harm someone with magic in self-defense or the defense of another, or if it is an agreed upon due without fear of degradation. However, killing in self-defense still warrants a degradation roll. Also, regardless of the conditions, cursing someone will always involve a degradation roll. This also applies to all game lines, concerning actions in self-defense.
In addition, something I take out of this is that buffs to yourself are not considered using magic to directly harm an opponent. But this is just my interpretation from Bill's use of the word "direct".
This page contains stuff that Bill Bridges (one of the writers of M:tA) has said on the forums to questions.
This is not an official errata release and should only be viewed as a rough draft until the official errata is released. It's compiled here for the sake of convenience.
Wisdom
Q: Can you clarify the Wisdom 4 sin 'harming someone with magic'?
A: Using magic to 'harm someone' does need a better explanation, I agree. It really means using magic to directly harm someone with intent (accidents don't count). 'Someone' really refers to humans, not werewolves or spirits (or ghosts), although if the mage believes the werewolf is a human (i.e., someone cursed with lycanthropy, rather than a half-human/half-spirit creature), he might suffer degeneration for intentionally and directly inflicting harm with magic.
Q: Wisdom 4's "harm to someone" rule. I've heard you mentioned -direct- harm, so directing lighting or electricity from a wall socket doesn't count? What about self-defense? How much damage is harm (bashing/lethal/aggravated), because in the spell casting combat example, no one ever rolls for Wisdom?
A: Wisdom degradation only becomes an issue if you're using magic to harm someone maliciously. You can use it out of self-defense or defense of others. You can use it if someone has called you out for a fight and says it's okay (fight to the death, probably). But you can't go around using magic for ill purposes against others without suffering possible Wisdom degradation. Rules for Wisdom/Morality shouldn't be seen as a "letter of the law" kind of thing -- the spirit is what's important here, as it is when discussing most issues involving the humanities rather than science or law. However, this doesn't mean that lack of intent gets you off the hook in all cases -- accidental manslaughter is still something that shakes someone's Morality.
Q: What exactly counts as a curse for the Wisdom 7 degeneration?
A: Any Fate Evil Eye or variants.
Q: Would spells like Befuddle and Enfeeblement count as "cursing someone" for the Wisdom 7 degeneration?
A: Yes.
Q: Using Monkey's Paw to hex an object a person has counts as hexing them and is thus a Wisdom 7 degeneration roll.
A: Yes.
Q: Can you clarify what exactly is a Curse? Is it anything that lowers an opponent's attribute or affects his roll? What about mind control? It doesn't seem like it would be any spell that has a duration that's cast on a target. After all, things like Influence Emotion don't appear to be curses. I'm also assuming that this Wisdom 7 degeneration should be looked at from the spirit, and not the text, similar to the Wisdom 4 harm someone with magic.
A: Generally, a spell which causes the target to suffer negative happenstance that he has not earned or caused himself. Take context into account, though. This is a relatively minor "sin." Once your Wisdom drops below 7, you don't have to worry about it again. But those mages trying to keep to the Wise road shouldn't go around causing others to suffer ill happenstance for their own ends; that's bending fate or karma's natural process.
Q: You clarified that 'Harming someone with magic' only applies if the mage does this of his own volition and 'without due cause' - i.e., if he were defending himself from an attacker or participating in an agreed-upon magical duel, it wouldn't cause degeneration. Is this sort of discernment meant to apply to all Wisdom sins? That is to say, if you cast a curse someone in self-defense or bind a spirit to stop it from eating you or whatever, you shouldnt' have to make a degeneration roll? (Though context presumably still matters, so "he threw a punch at me" is not enough justification for unloading a death curse)
A: A curse is not really a self-defense spell -- degrading someone's Attributes or their dice pool doesn't stop them from attacking you; it just shifts the odds. You're still steering fate/karma to your own needs, rather than letting it play out against the target in its own due time.
The self-defense option might well apply against the spirit, if binding it stops it from harming you. But if you keep it bound beyond the immediate danger, then you might have to revisit the Wisdom roll.
Q: Does this also apply to Morality and/or Humanity? I'd been operating under the assumption that it really is the 'letter of the law' that caused you to degenerate because (good intentions or not) you were becoming desentized to causing suffering, so even someone who commits sins in self-defense comes away changed.
A: The sorts of things that apply to Morality in the World of Darkness rulebook err a bit more toward the letter of the law. Even if you kill someone in self-defense, your conscience can be plagued by guilt and doubt about whether you could have found another option (even if you really couldn't have).
In summary, you can harm someone with magic in self-defense or the defense of another, or if it is an agreed upon due without fear of degradation. However, killing in self-defense still warrants a degradation roll. Also, regardless of the conditions, cursing someone will always involve a degradation roll. This also applies to all game lines, concerning actions in self-defense.
In addition, something I take out of this is that buffs to yourself are not considered using magic to directly harm an opponent. But this is just my interpretation from Bill's use of the word "direct".