rlandis
Journeyman
FOR THE EMPIRE!
Posts: 224
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Post by rlandis on Dec 17, 2009 10:15:03 GMT -5
*shrug* As I said. I just don't hold a love for 4th. Don't think I ever will.
I only enjoyed it for its Combat and I'm not one for combat RP games.
If I wanted combat on the TT I'd play Warhammer minis - which I do.
To ME, it feels that 4'th is geared around its combat rather then its rp. It supports, as in other threads, the ARES guild.
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Post by rjrock85 on Dec 17, 2009 11:45:47 GMT -5
We can agree to disagree but I'm just failing to see how your criticisms of 4e can't be applied to 3.5.
Maybe some day I can show you how 4e can be enjoyable as a well rounded game.
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Fenix
Journeyman
Who in the hell do you think I am?
Posts: 162
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Post by Fenix on Dec 17, 2009 21:16:21 GMT -5
(Kanye West grabs mike from Rock) "I just want to say that Beyonce had the best DnD version of all time." (drops mike and walks away)
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Fenix
Journeyman
Who in the hell do you think I am?
Posts: 162
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Post by Fenix on Dec 17, 2009 21:27:05 GMT -5
IMO the new 4th feels a little closer to WoD in the skill area. I mean really, they group the skills in WoD and no one has really complained about that with the system right?
Quick question for you Landis, let's say you are going to the bathroom and your junk gets caught in the zipper when you zip up? Bad experinced right? Does that mean you won't ever pee again? Never wear jeans with a zipper? Give it a chance.
Just saying,
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rlandis
Journeyman
FOR THE EMPIRE!
Posts: 224
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Post by rlandis on Dec 17, 2009 21:42:12 GMT -5
I hate everything in the world, only a few things cause me discomfort. One of those things, is 4'th.
Alex. . . Lets say you made the mistake of kissing a girl only to find out she is a transgender. . . you would take more care in the future too.
Now, as I said. I dislike like 4'th ed ALOT. I also dislike school ALOT, but I still deal with it. I'd run another character in a 4'th, but the whole time in the back of my head I'd be screaming "MMO ON PAPER! Its an MMO ON PAPER!!!!"
I don't see myself picking up the 4'th ed banner and saying I truly enjoy the system. To me, 4'th is all about the combat. . .
I can continue to reply to further comments about why I dislike 4'th but I'd feel like a broken record so I shall stop.
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Fenix
Journeyman
Who in the hell do you think I am?
Posts: 162
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Post by Fenix on Dec 17, 2009 22:49:22 GMT -5
Fair enough sir. I wish I had been able to log on sooner and get in the discussion earlier. but oh well. You were not the only one to state how you felt about the system. Its just that you are more willing to continue to express your thoughts when they are questioned.
Personally I have been more drawn to the World of Darkness system, but that's just me,
And i do believe that some karma for not backing down due to peer pressure.
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Post by Drozgul on Dec 18, 2009 2:27:13 GMT -5
Wow, you guys use some interesting analogies...I thought some of mine were bad.
The point is, you want to play a game which involves role-play, yes? Good, glad that is pretty much clear. Otherwise you wouldn't even be reading this. Why is it a system's responsibility to tell you how to do that?
When I first began to play these games, role-playing just meant making your own choice from a short range of options on any given situation, and then roll dice on the outcome. I had to get PAST the rules to see what the story was, and probably would have never player again, had it not been for a pretty awesome first time experience.
At that point, Ryan hadn't even shown me a rule book, (probably because he knew even then that it surely would have turned my interest off) and we played the entire summer I think.
I could understand if the setting was the problem, or the theme of the game didn't suit your fancy. Then yeah, sure, don't play it. Dungeons and Dragons is a staple of the gaming world. And as long as you play any edition, you're okay in my book. Moving along with the times is something we may resist to the bitter end, sure. But the end is almost always bitter.
Recently I was called "captivating" by one of my players. That was really a word I have never, ever, heard used to describe me. It wasn't D&D. Wouldn't have mattered if it was. The point here is that (to back up what Ryan said) one person's way of leading you to a game puts a bad taste in your mouth, no one can make you play. Captivating is a word I have yet to feel personally can be reciprocated to anyone so far as a GM when I have played, but the search continues.
I was close a few times. I challenge all of you, on a new thread, to take this discussion, and pull from it your best moments in a game (any game) where the storyteller is what made the moment. And then perhaps in yet another thread, one that defines the same kind of great memory, but probably had little to do with the GM. Maybe it was due to the other players. No need to name names, we all remember the best games, lets share them.
As for this discussion here. I only came here to ask people to do what is difficult for me to do, because I choose to TRY to do it. That is adapt, change, grow, learn, and open your mind. Its hard. I know especially for some of you, you don't think you need any sort of change, but some of us would agree you could be a little more open. Ultimately your choice of course.
A few things stand out in my mind that remind me of this idea: "Never do things others can do and will do, if there are things others cannot do or will not do." -Amelia Earhart "We need not think alike to love alike." -David Ferenc "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other." -Benjamin Franklin
It is a shame that some of us have seemingly ruined our fun by becoming adults. -Brian Potter
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Lady Masquerade
Journeyman
Look into my eyes. Do you see who I see?
Posts: 174
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Post by Lady Masquerade on Dec 18, 2009 17:17:55 GMT -5
Amen, preach it brother Rock!
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Post by roborob on Dec 18, 2009 19:41:58 GMT -5
ok here is what i am stuck on with 4E. I really do like the new skill layout and the way you choose one of two stats as your save oops defense. but however where is the d&d time honored multiclassing. in 4E you have to take a feat to gain access and more feats to get abilities. i do kinda like the idea of the abilities where a fighter can do more than base attack, base attack, base attack. but on the other hand what are the rules to do a swing attack like a pirate on a rope. ok 4E core rules your move action you swing down and grapple him cause you can't do an at will, encounter, or daily in that position so you have to grapple. ok you grapple him and what... next round more him one square??? i think 4E could be ok if the gm sat down with the players and changed the core rules to fit better. add in some non combat skills like craft or perform. but i do agree with brian's earlier post the rp is the players and gm's job but they give nothing like the old game did. 3.5 has a base random quest generator that i use for most of my games in the dmg. and 3.5 did get bogged down with alot of content but i like that. it gives me more choices. also you have to be careful about using non wizards material. i am not saying it is all evil but there is alot of stuff that is that is just stupid powerful. but i guess my point is that 4E is a good idea and platform but there are more rules that need to be set out so that you can do more out of the box kind of actions. Werewolf gets mad at air spirits, chucks propane tank at them and yells, throws ally and enters combat. Propane is an improvised weapon and you can't wield it
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Post by Drozgul on Dec 19, 2009 4:37:58 GMT -5
I like this response much better, but I have to say please please please come to the big Meet on the 27th at Sea the Source, and talk with Ryan a bit about 4E and such. Ironically, I plan to have a 3.5 dungeon plan ready to roll just to play around with for the day for any takers.
Ryan is one of the few people I know who can read material, digest it, and then immediately be ready for discussion on it with a few references, sure. But he is determined to understand something once he finally pays for it. So he is currently our "expert" on 4E, and hopefully, could work out some of those kinks that bother you so much, and bring back a decent D&D experience, without taking the step backward.
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Post by rjrock85 on Dec 19, 2009 5:50:34 GMT -5
Well I have good news for you, Rob. When they release the PHB3 for 4e, they will have rules for multiclass characters. Its a different take than it used to, somewhat taking a step back to the old Dual Class system for humans in AD&D. I've got the playtest material on my comp, if you want me to print it out (if you're planning to come to the meeting Dec 27th). Of course its still in the beta, but you may find if of use.
Page 42 of the 4e DMG has the answers for the Pirate Swing attack thingy problem.
And as to the Grapple rules...yeah they bite ass...a lot of ass...but hopefully WotC wises up some time soon and expands on them (through new rules, items, feats, powers, anything really). Hopefully so that they aren't as complicated as 3.5's.
Now I'm going to approach perform and craft from two sides. One: In the grand scheme of things can they really advance the plot or offer up new options through success? I contend, no. Two: Can these skills not be represented by any of the other skills in specific situations? I contend, yes (Blacksmithing could be represented by Endurance or Athletics...Herbalism could be represented by Nature...Alchemy by Arcana or Nature...so on and so on) (Perform could be represented by Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather Information all depending on what you're hoping to accomplish). To satisfy a person wishing to specialize in a specific craft or performance instrument, decide what craft (and which skill it will be associated with) or instrument you wish to focus on at character creation and/or when you might learn it through the course of roleplay.
RAW, craft took far too long to accomplish anything while out in a Dungeon or in the wilderness and needed something done lickity-split. If the DM house ruled either before-hand or on the spot that you could make this thing or that right now, then you really aren't playing D&D 3.5. You are playing Houseruled D&D 3.5, and whats to stop you from houseruling that X Skill can substitute for making thing Y or any other option that would make crafting able to be done.
RAW, perform could only be used to acquire pittances of money by performing in front of a crowd. No more, no less (minus the exceptions of class and feat choices). Again, doesn't really advance the plot in a significant way. Could it offer up new options...possible but again only through money gain. If used otherwise (outside of the exceptions previously mentioned), then refer to my houserule comment above.
Finally, is the random quest generator disintegrated and removed from existence just because you decided to play 4e? Just sayin'.
Sorry for the length but I felt that your problems should be addressed.
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Post by rjrock85 on Dec 19, 2009 5:57:11 GMT -5
One thing that I will add to the gripe list for 4e: Rituals are a piss poor replacement for 3.5 spells...but only because they take too damned long to cast. If I were to run a 4e game, I'd houserule it so that rituals with combat appications could be prepared beforehand and cast later as a Standard action. Not sure how many spells I'd allow to be prepared before hand (probably equal to a Primary Attribute of your choice plus 1/4 your level or something like that).
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Lady Masquerade
Journeyman
Look into my eyes. Do you see who I see?
Posts: 174
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Post by Lady Masquerade on Dec 19, 2009 20:33:23 GMT -5
Combat vs. roleplay? If you think something is too limited when it comes to what the sourcebook says about what you are allowed or not allowed to do, or if one version has "few options" or "less description" (which by the way is just flavor text from the writer's point of view, it can look however the player or DM imagines it) then I have only one piece of advice for you.
Play with Rusty sometime. He decides what he wants to do and asks what he needs to do to attempt it. Kudos to Mr. Bael for never saying "no" when he did this in his 4e game.
Flexibility and imagination of the players and DM are all you really need to have a great game, whether its 3.5, 4e, or Homeruled whatever.
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Post by Drozgul on Dec 20, 2009 1:15:48 GMT -5
Yeah, to be perfectly honest RAW (Rules As Written) run games generally leave me with a ba taste for gaming. The system is there to be manipulated, and to be reworked, for whatever better outcome you can reach at your own table.
Anyone who has EVER played in one of my games knows I can throw the RAW out the window a lot. For better or worse. I simply don't like the time it takes to read and understand, versus actual time spent playing the game, which in the past has not been a favorable ratio.
I'm not here to persuade anyone to play something that they don't like. In fact it really saves me time later. There are several players I have trouble sharing a game with, so whether it be seen as rude, frustrating or just hard-headed, its just easier to game with people who are more tolerant to each other in general.
Dicky and I have had many back and forths, with one or two systems, and we rarely agree on much. Sometimes that is to our benefit, other times it can be quite explosive, and result in one or the other of us simply not playing (usually (historically) me). And yet we remain friends outside the game, because its almost nearly as much fun to argue our stance and understand each other's spot on the subject, even if neither one of us will bend even a single inch.
Hell, even Ryan and I disgree about gaming from time to time, but moreover can waste away whole days easily just talking shop while no game spins the table. We do need to fix that by the way. Hopefully your upcoming Chronicle will patch a couple of those old gaming holes.
It is my decree to make an attempt to finalize the arguement by saying I believe the best version of D&D is the one that brings the most players to the table, agreeably, to have fun every time.
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rlandis
Journeyman
FOR THE EMPIRE!
Posts: 224
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Post by rlandis on Dec 20, 2009 9:51:21 GMT -5
Best version.
The best version of DnD is 0.5
When the creators said, "Ah shit . . . Lets just has some Wizards an' cool shit, use some dice to decide shit, and lets kick some . . . Kobold, yeah lets call the little guys kobolds and goblins, lets kick some kobold ass!"
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